Systems Dialogues with Maya Narayan

Maya Narayan is the co-founder of Holon Perspectives, a Mumbai-based consultancy, founded with a mission of developing the systems thinking ecosystem in India. She facilitates systems change workshops to better equip organisations and individuals, with tools and frameworks for solving complex problems.

In this conversation, we explore systems change through the lens of everything from Jenga to social entrepreneurship and ecosystems to personal power.

Saskia

I would love to hear from your perspective, what is a system? What are some metaphors that you regularly refer to in this work?

Maya

I feel that some context is necessary, in that we live in a world that comprises various human and ecological systems that are constantly interacting with each other. And what that causes is an overlap of some shocks, be it in the political system, in the economic, ecological, our social systems across the world. And since the whole globe is interconnected, these shocks that are seemingly disparate affect each other to such a huge extent that we've gotten into what Professor Adam Tooze calls a ‘polycrisis situation’. 

And it is given this context that Holon's motto is to tell stories of social impact or development using a holistic paradigm, where we are able to help people do the right things and not just do things right. That's our broad perspective on how we carry out our systems practice. 

Now to come to the metaphors. I really like the Elephant and the Blind Men metaphor for introducing people to systems. I also like the Iceberg Model. I have a background in education, and a couple of metaphors that we use to provide school children with access to their own life and culture, as well as an opportunity to look at others, are windows and mirrors. 

A window essentially is a resource that allows them to see things from other people's perspectives - meaning other students’ perspectives. And a mirror, on the other hand, lets them know more about their culture, their beliefs, and helps them build an identity.

Saskia

Thanks Maya. And thinking about these metaphors of the windows and mirrors, are there any other objects or props that you might use to help explain what a system is?

Maya

I love this question by the way. So I had this flatmate when I was living in a rental apartment in Bangalore and we used to play a game called Jenga. I'm not sure if you're aware, but it's a game where you have 54 blocks, like rectangular blocks of wood that are stacked up in a certain pattern to make a tower and then each person gets a turn to unlodge one piece of that tower without getting the tower to fall. 

That's a prop that can help people understand a lot of systems properties in just the way it's constructed. You have three blocks horizontally laid and then three vertical or perpendicular to them on top of them, and that's how you stack up the towers. So there is interconnection that's adding to the complexity of the structure and each person gets a turn to remove these pieces without having the tower to collapse.

You could think of those as leverage points. There can be a minimum of two players, up to eight or nine players, and everybody has leverage in the system so everybody gets a chance. And another rule of the game is that once you remove a piece of that tower, you have to place it on top. So that in some sense talks about the unintended consequence, or how the system is emerging because one piece laid on top could also be precarious and cause the tower to collapse.

Saskia 

I love that game. Yes, it's a very common game in New Zealand and when you're telling the story, I'm thinking of all the times you find a wobbly piece and you're like, oh no, not that one, I'll try something else. That’s a really nice example.

Saskia 

So how do you understand how systems change?

Maya

This might be a philosophical answer: I feel personally that systems don't change, it's more our understanding that changes with more awareness, our understanding evolves, so that we are able to create the conditions for the system to behave in a different manner. And in that sense, I mean systems don't change. 

Our work with a lot of social entrepreneurs in the Indian context has helped us learn a few things. Using systems jargon like ‘emergence’ or ‘self-organisation’, kind of pushes them away because that's not something they're able to understand and apply. So we use other words that they're already familiar with - impact, outcomes, scale - and then scaffold that understanding with systems practice. 

So for instance talking typically in an Indian context, entrepreneurs would think about scale in terms of increasing the number of people or communities reached. So shifting that mindset to think more about changing institutional policy or rules, and then thinking about the power structures that are holding the system in place, and cultural norms. Helping them make that shift and then hearing it back in their own words, where typically they'd say a program helped them zoom in and zoom out at the same time. 

Or for instance, somebody had shared during one of our programs that at first, she thought that her organisation’s work was to transform the lives of 300 transgender people. But now she knows that it's beyond that, where she can have strategic partners in the entire ecosystem and bring about much more change. 

So it's essentially in what they're sharing back and in capturing those words that I see systems change happening.

Saskia

Of course. It's really interesting seeing the language evolve around systems change. And it's not that it's being created, it's more that it's being discovered, isn't it? There's lots of systems change happening around the world, but the language is slightly different in different places. I'm really curious how it's being discovered in India across lots of different organisations and social / development work.

Maya

When we started off we were naive and used lots of terminology, but it would always leave us and workshop participants high and dry about, ‘okay - I get this at a theoretical level, but I am not able to apply it on the field’. 

Hence you need to speak their language - totally cut down on systems jargon and just make them understand by experiencing what it means, in cohort-based settings.

Saskia

And so you obviously work with a lot of organisations and people, like you say, don't really hop into the systems jargon. What is a definition you use to help people understand systems change?

Maya

So we can always fall back on Donella Meadows definition because it's very simple and it helps anchor a conversation around systems. She says that a system is a set of related components that work together in a particular environment to perform whatever functions are required to achieve the system's objective. 

And so that's always a good starting point. Having said that, we've also interacted with people who have a basic understanding of systems. There we've introduced something like a causal loop diagram or some form of basic systems mapping, and then taken the conversation further to mental models and a reflective activity. We talk about personal power or the power that you hold as a person, as well as your organisation holds. 

And typically we would also borrow a quote from let's say Dr. Russel Ackoff, or one of my favourite quotes for mental models is that ‘we don't see things as they are, but we see them as we are’. So we use a lot of that as well in our work.

Saskia 

So I'd love to hear, you've touched on a couple of them, but what are the best examples or stories of systemic transformation that you've come across.

Maya

I worked with this organisation called Kaivalya Foundation before being a co-founder myself. And they essentially work with school leaders and educational functionaries with the government at different levels. And they also work with fellows - they offer a youth two year fellowship, where they set up in difficult areas with municipal schools. This builds youth leadership skills because they are having to live with the communities, engage with the school principals, teach the children. And so this ecosystem approach I think is one success story of transformational systems change. 

More recently I was a part of an evaluation study for an organisation called Paani Foundation, which has been spearheaded by a Bollywood star called Aamir Khan. The genesis of Paani is that in Marathwada, a drought prone region in Maharashtra state, farmers were suffering so much because of the lack of water that they were committing suicide en masse.

Saskia

Lastly, I feel like we've kind of talked on this anyway, but I'd love to hear again, how do you find that your practice is systemic?

Maya

So maybe at this point I could answer that partially, because there's still a long way to go. But then like I said, we started off from just thinking about a soft systems approach, but our own learning curve has helped us evolve. 

We try to intersperse some awareness-based practice into our workshops with a particular tool or framework so that there's a constant endeavour to try and make the participant reflect on, ‘okay, this is what systems thinking is, but how am I impeding or enabling that to happen’ from a personal point of view. 

So when we talk about mapping or mental models or leverage points, we alternate that with looking at our personal power or the power structures. That's how we are seeing it evolve, and through questions. The entrepreneurs are opening up with some really wonderful questions that give us further insight as to how we can hold our practice further. 

Saskia 

That's great to see. And I can't wait to hear how the kind of systems field in India evolves and develops over the years, it seems like a really, really exciting time. I was able to connect with people that are working in Chennai and Bangalore and Delhi and Mumbai and it feels like there's a lot going on, a lot of get togethers and conferences and a lot of really interesting people coming together and trying to figure out all the messy space. So I'm so glad I got a chance to connect with you Maya, and thanks for sharing. 

Maya

Yes, like you say, so for instance, we are also part of a network called Catalyst 2030 which has an India chapter. Given the sheer size of India, we are doing things in pockets and then there's always this struggle to collaborate more often and do things together. But I'm so glad that we've started the conversation and this is also a wonderful way of helping us reach out to the larger audience. 

So when we are able to put out some form of content such as this, I think it really helps not just our organisation individually, but also the ecosystem at large and in trying to achieve what we are. So thank you so much. It was wonderful talking to you.